What About the Sheeple?
This is another contribution from Murph. As always, thanks Murph.
What About the Sheeple?
A short time ago, during one of my rants and punching the keys on my keyboard in a written display of rage, my wife and I got into talking about how you go about changing or focusing people on the core issues. Her comment was; “How are you going to get people to focus on an intellectual subject, an examination of their belief system when you yourself have lost contact with the popular culture? Keep in mind honey, a very large part of popular culture revolves around the popular media that is built to appeal to people that prefer not to think about things seriously.”
Now that one set me back a bit. She is right. I have not been much of a participant in the popular culture for most of my adult life. What little time I have spent on the TV side of it in the last 20 years has left me throwing up in my rubber farm boots. For me, the last of the really good TV programming was in the 1970’s. The really discouraging thing is that the ‘educational’ programming is scant better. Not only is it poor entertainment, but it tends to feature bad science, opinions and speculation presented as facts, and redundant commentary to the point that I wonder just what age of the audience they are appealing to. Four year olds? There have been very few programs, or even part of one, that was presented to a minimally educated or thoughtful adult. My expectation is not of erudite and ivory tower intellectualism. That would be a way limited audience for sure. But do you remember the really well written programs of the 70’s and early 80’s: serials and made for TV dramas? They not only entertained but also examined ideas and value systems.
We speculate and condemn the general population for its blind obedience and sheeple personality. Well, what do you expect? How are you going to talk to people about world affairs, or even national issues when they can’t even find where they live on a map, much less identify where Iraq or Afghanistan is located. Cripes, we have had presidents and vice presidents who had problems with this. Now we have an intellectually challenged president who can’t even speak distinctly. Not much comparison of him to the famous orators of the past for sure. I remember back around the year 2000 I got hold of a word Analysis paper that examined the educational level of the wording of speeches made by prominent people, particularly presidents. Bush Sr. and his dingy son gave speeches that used wordings and sentence structure that were around the 5th, to 8th grade level of competence. They also gave an analysis of why this was so. They wanted to talk to the ‘common man’. Now what does that tell you about our society, our educational system, our values for political office and the outright manipulation of the population by these guys?
Plus, into this, is the enslavement to wages of the general population. For a large percentage of our population, a two family income, some with multiple jobs, is the only way to stay alive. They simply do not have the energy and time to deal with examination of their surroundings and culture. Coming home exhausted is not conducive to wanting thoughtful and meaningful programming. Instead, escapism is the word for the day to dull the experience of living and relieve the exceedingly stressful life. If I remember a recent stat correctly, nearly 60% of our population lives at or close to the official government poverty level. In that kind of environment, you simply cannot have the time to learn, think and be thoughtful beyond daily existence.
There have been a couple of interesting TV programs some while ago on how politicians get elected. They hire PR firms for really big bucks to sell them, like a bar of soap, or a brand of suppositories. In keeping with the ever higher elevation of psychological manipulation by the PR firms to encourage mindless consumption, it has worked amazingly well. No wonder it costs so much to get elected. Without daddy’s money and connections and PR firms selling Bush to the public, he would have trouble getting a truck drivers delivery job because of drinking problems. This buffoon was sold to the public. Unless something radically changes in the public’s perceptions and value systems, there isn’t going to be any election reform. Further, there also will be no third parties, no true representation of any kind. It is all in the hands of the corporate structure that will spread any amount of goodies before us with the expectation that we will buy into the system and vote accordingly. When politicians are marketed the same as peanut butter or a car, we might as well cash it all in and start over.
How can this disgusting affair be changed from within the structure? In my opinion, it can’t. When the level of thoughtfulness of the general population degrades to a point like this, you can’t fix it or change it. Our education system is in shambles, our value systems revolve around consumption, our acceptance of corruption, greed, stupidity and lack of integrity is astounding. When a majority of the population lives like this, you aren’t going to elect anyone who is going to even try to change it. This folks is the major problem with a democracy. The majority, no matter their mindlessness, their stupidity, their lack of honesty and thoughtfulness, are going to hold sway.
Until recently, the mindlessness of the people we can group together as extreme Christian fundamentalists (the fundies) were mostly ignored, allowed to go on their merry way, and were mostly just an irritant. With the dumbing down of the population and the generated fear and hopelessness generated by the political system and their owners (the corporations) there has been a huge upsurge of the “mega churches”. They finally got what they wanted; a man as president who represented them and their concerns. Quite a nightmare they got don’t you think? But of course, if the issue of abortion and gay rights is so important to get into heaven, looking forward to the apocalypse follows naturally.
I just can’t see much hope for the continuance of society as it is now. Humans have been down this road before. With the big crisis’ that are coming at us, the complete lack of any meaningful top down leadership, it has to fall. If anyone is left, perhaps the future will hold something other than the brutality and enslavement that predominates today. It doesn’t take a college education or even a lofty intellect to be aware of your own values and their meaning. It does take some introspection and thoughtfulness, neither of which requires expectations of greatness, but only of healthy living.
Murph
posted by cyclone @ 9:22 AM
39 comments
39 Comments:
Nice one, Murph. Right on the money!
The whole "entertainment for the masses" trip is exactly what has fucked this country up! Sure! I'm all for the little guy winning! But when you show the "Little guy" hero as some drunken loser that suddenly pulls off the imposible by vitue of some mind-numbingly senseless act, then your starting the next batch of drunken losers!
The Republicans seem to draw drunken losers like shit draws flies! They look at George Bush and say, "If they put that guy in the White House, then they could put me in the White House!". Scarey thing is, if you look at Geoge Bush's "base" It consists of the very rich(Who know what the deal is, and don't want any body else to find out!), the very religious (Who don't know what the deal is, but think they do, because Pat Robertson lied when he said he did!) , and the huddles masses, whimpering in fear and crying for their children to be saved from the terrible "Hippy-ass liberal, tree-hugging queer-loving, fags!" For the most part, this seems to be the American public! Blinded by comedy, full of dramma, and rapidly aproaching tragedy!
Folks,
To change the subject a bit, to see some really high powered propaganda by corporations, try this site;
http://www.learnaboutcoal.com/
I have scrounged through this site and every bit of the data I can find has no independent study, it is all corporate. Which of course in todays world, makes it immediately suspect.
When I wrote to the email address in the site asking where the data was to support the assertions, all I got back was to click on the blue highlighted areas to find out. None of the figures give source, nor organization nor error estimate.
Sure looks like an advanced campaign for the coal companies to me.
Murph
I think that people our age did not grow up in front of a TV set. I first saw a TV when I was about 12 and our family bought one when I was 14.
The baby boomers grew up hooked on it. They were trained on answers in pictures and thirty second blurbs. Even the shows you refer to in the 70's addressed major problems and produced happy answers in 30 minutes. Wow it was so easy.
I am not an athority on todays TV because I do not watch it. I did go to a movie a few years ago, I think it was Apollo 13.
I do read a lot and I try to get the hang of the internet. But I still have the bad habit of questioning what I read.
Most people I know do not question what they hear or especially what they see - Our mission is not to explain, or teach, but instead get people to ASK.
Hell my grandsons are High school wrestlers and peole I know go to see them expecting to see the WWF.
Peak Oil, Global Warming and International Politics take thinking. Thats a lot to ask from someone addicted to the boob tube
Lilac
Hello Murph,
Another top piece mate ;)
Me and my girl have also been talking about the very same topic. Seems that after we spent time investigating the current crises' that face humanity and go through the reactions you end up seeing that the majority has no idea and doesnt want to know. For much the same reasons you outlined in your article.
We observe those around us as they deal with their daily dramas and see that these people simply lack the fundamental skills to live. They only survive by holding onto the notion that if you follow what the corporate media shows you, you should be doing OK and find yourself successful. A car, a house, some kids and an investment portfolio. Sweet.
Its only bittersweet though as what they dont tell you or teach us anymore is the basic spiritual inner connection to your true self. Without this connection you can no longer see the true nature of life. You can no longer feel what nature tells you and you lack the ability to comprehend your life, thoughts and feelings. Loss of rationale.
All we can see is that the train is headin for the bridge that is out and its going too fast to pull up now.....
We gave up trying to signal the driver, he is drunk anyway and besides its better to focus on whats left for now, sticking to your discipline and remaining true till the end. Fuck worrying about what the corporate world is doing, they are a bunch of idiots as we know and I'll get a kick out of watchin them freak out when it starts to get closer to that bridge.
Time to take out the trash.
Wow great post Murph!
Been absent for a while here and it appears that many things have been happening with this site. Just a quick glance and suffice it to say that I am very pleased Cyclone that you will continue this Blog in some fashion.
Believe it when I say that Blogs such this one are very necessary.
I would like to comment a bit more but it will have to wait for a time when I actually can sit down and put together some coherent thought...lol
Hasta luego
Ely
you know lilac we must be about the same age ,i remember when a neighbor bought a tv,i was about 13 or 14,it had one really snowy channel and you could hardly see the people but everyone on the block would come over and watch it!!god what happened? you are right though, i ask people questions and just get hardly any reply,even in this tiny village which is shut off for the most part from the mainstream,the information is just not available,anyway have aquired fire wood and the people seem receptive to the idea of gathering to protest the deaths of our children in iraq and the children of iraq and desposing of the monster in the white house ,called both senators yesterday and the governor and there helpers assured me that they would get my message to them,censering might be a start ,i do know what else to do except to try to wake the people around me to what is going on in this country,its so quite here and hardly anything ever happens of consequence ,an occasional bear or deer will walk through and thats about it.that will be the biggie of the day ,i love it though,the people are good and when the shit comes down it will be nice to know that you are surrended by friends and neighbors that will stand together as one and god help the dumb shit that would choose to envade this place in an unfriendly manner,all others will surely be welcome if and when the whole thing blows up.
stoney you really crack me up would love to meet you sometime,love all the posts,what a great way to start the day,wood need more wood.
in spirit,and light ,
montana freeman
Admit it: you guys feel grief over the stupefying of America, because you care about America. It's obvious.
Anger, bargaining (political strategizing), denial (attempts to integrate into society), are all parts of the grieving process. At some point, you might discover acceptance.
Take this advice: you are well ahead of the pack. When the manure hits the fan, you will be out on deck, giving directions to the lifeboats. Don't be afraid of the responsibility. Have confidence. You will be needed someday. Prepare now.
When you do, you'll realize that you can leverage your knowlege in a fashion which can benefit you, in the long run. The more you know, the more valuable you will be.
Today's informed are tomorrow's aristocracy. Welcome to the new world order.
Folks,
This was sent to my wife and I. The recorded speech is from a TV drama series, Boston Legal. I have never watched the show but if this is an example of the writing in it, I just might start looking at it. This speech sorta sums up a lot of what we talk about on this site.
http://www.boston-legal.org/19-stickit/BL-2x19-StickIt-ClosingArguments.asx
Stoney,
Thanks for the comments. You do have a way with words that I really enjoy.
Lilac,
I was born in 1940, lower middle class family. I didn't see TV until the better off neighbors got one. At the time, I was more interested in radio drama, glued to the radio for the superman series, the Green Lantern, and the Lone Ranger. They allowed my imagination to go to places no man has gone before. TV stuff that I saw at the time mostly bored me. I was imersed in books and the radio dramas.
Yes, you are right, with the advent of TV we had the solving of moral dilemmas in 30 to 60 min. At least the programming was involved in it. So few today it seems, but I am not a great TV watcher anyway. I spent a great deal of the 90's and early 20's ignoring the TV.
With my previous post, maybe I shall spend a bit more time to see if there is something of value today.
Technofreak,
I agree with you. The disconnection with our environment, disconnection with community,tribe, whatever, is not to our benifit I think. Perhaps this is the reason we see so much stampeding for the spiritual leaders to tell us what to do, how to think, to seek the dais ex machina to resolve our problems.
Countering with the corporate leaders being idiots is perhaps not true. I rather imagine they knowexactly what they are doing. What I do fear is that they have no realization of the consequences.
What motivates humans to extreme action is fear in it's many forms. Whether those actions make any sense or not is histry in the making.
Ely Whitney,
Looking forward to your comments. Welcome back.
Anonymous,
Oh my, You think we really need to have an aristocracy? I really don't want to see just a change of personal, rather a change in structure.
Murph, you have done it again. You can comfort yourself with the thought that if it was easy it wouldn’t be worth doing. What an uphill subject, I am afraid that I haven’t got a clue. I think that Technofreak and Lilac particularly came closest to seeing through the problem.
You could try to educate the masses through quiz type game shows with questions like “Either explain how American society will survive in a time when there is no more oil, or name two of the Beatles”?
The now sadly dead British politician Mo Mowlem was known for having a sharp mind and lots of courage. She was once heavily criticised for appearing on a frivolous light hearted chat show with lots of fooling around and buffoonery and censured by her masters for devaluing the image of the party (Ha). As she later explained, there is half a population of voters out there who are not going to tune into the Sunday morning David Frost political interview. If you want to get their vote you cannot talk down to them, you have to approach on their level and try to talk them up.
Like Lilac, I see disco scenes on TV and in films and usually cover my face with my hands and peep through my fingers, and whisper “I used to do that”. I think it is a stage that most youngsters go through and hopefully it doesn’t have any long lasting effects.
A problem that the TV news programs have is that over the years, maybe from the time of Vietnam, viewers have been bombarded with constant battle footage. Now people have reached the point of atrocity fatigue. Horrific scenes have lost their ability to shock to the point of blandness. It is almost as if when we hear that say, three of our divisions have been wiped out, we subconsciously think “I hope that somebody reloads a previous save”.
Most of us have seen those films where new recruits at military college are being bawled out by their CO who barks out at some unfortunate ”What in Gods name is puny fagot like you doing training in a proud regiment like this”? And we get the shit for brains answer “I want to serve my country, Sir”. I think that such ones should be made to write out The Universal Soldier ten times and then spend a month contributing to Cyclones blog, then if they still want to join….
The two Bushes may have talked down to their audiences (I have doubts about the new one being able to raise his game) but Nixon had quite a different style. His two main techniques were to use vocabulary that was so complicated that while people were trying to figure out what he had actually said he was off into a new subject. The other thing he used to do was to make the answer so long and so entertaining that everybody had forgotten what the question was. In either case he had got away with it.
By the way I heard a story that when the Repugs came into office this time they found that the Dems had removed the letter W from every keyboard in the White House. Has anybody else heard this story?
Murph mentioned that 60% of Americans are working like hell to maintain their position on the poverty line. The time was that the man would go out to work and the woman would stay at home and raise the kids. With modern contraception methods families realised that the woman could work longer to provide a better standard of living. Gradually these standards were eroded so that it became necessary for two people to work to provide the buying power previously provided by one. The price of a house for instance is not based on cost but on what an average couple can repay over twenty five years. Somebody has also decided what the standard of that house should be. The same people that creamed off the difference of the extra income also created the society of want, sending people into spiralling debt to achieve the so called American dream and in so doing providing more support to Jevons’ Paradox. I remember an American visitor to the UK in the seventies being surprised that we had a washing machine, to which they got the rather short answer “Do you think we are all like the Flintstones, living in caves”.
The comments about TV are also spot on. A few years ago a survey was done on the question “Can you name a television program that has made a lasting impression on you”? The clear winner by a long way was a TV play (drama) called “Cathy Come Home” which was first shown in 1968 and dealt with the problems of homelessness. It was the first example in the UK of the so called docudrama.
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/C/htmlC/cathycomeho/cathycomeho.htm
There were also fine serials like “The Edge of Darkness” which was a fictional story about storing nuclear waste down mineshafts which then contaminated the water supply. The BBC used to do fine costume dramas; skulduggery and double dealings in the Middle Ages. The trouble is that there is no call for this sort of stuff anymore. What we want is endless game shows and the more the better.
The Christian backlash may be enjoying a revival, which in many ways is harmless enough but it is also possible that sinister cults like Scientology for instance could be riding on the back of the wave. Such organisations just provide a different form of enslavement and the people who succumb are even worse off than before. I have no reason for saying this but these cults could be organised by the ones who manipulate many other things.
The astute ones amongst you may realise that I am no better than Nixon. I have written many words but not even begun to address Freeacre’s question. The long answer short is that it will take someone with a better brain than mine to sort this one out.
From Belgium.
technofreak,
"...these people simply lack the fundamental skills to live. They only survive by holding onto the notion that if you follow what the corporate media shows you, you should be doing OK and find yourself successful."
That is so true. When I was young, I watched shows like "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best." I knew MY family wasn't normal, but it was as if I could see what normal was supposed to be by watching them. Later, it was the Brady Bunch and other dopey shows that exemplified how to be a shallow, white bread honkey destined to take over the world.
There were exceptions. The Twilight Zone, The Waltons, Star Trek, Mash,Saturday Night Live, etc. that encouraged us to think,love, laugh and wonder.
But, more and more, it's not the shows, but what is between the shows that is even more mind numbing. We used to sit through a few minutes of commercials between shows. And despite occassional confusing messages such as "if you eat enough Sugar Jets, you'll be able to fly.." the messages were pretty straight forward. Now, though, the commercials are works of wonder and seem to last forever. Lately, I've been noticing a trend to have lights flashing on and off at regular intervals that seem to have a mesmerizing effect. Whether it's to advertise cars or toothpaste, these unrelenting flashes drive one's attention into submission. Who knows what is really going on? I am starting to feel like one of those wackos who insists that she is receiving alien messages through her TV set.
Thank God for Tivo and the DVR,which allows me to skip over the commercials...Anyway, it has given even the brightest of us a distorted sense of reality. We don't value much what we don't see validated on the tube. There is SO MUCH left out. We don't even have a clue how much is left out. No wonder that collectively, our culture can't find its ass with both hands. Much of the culture "no longer has the fundamental skills to live". Living has not been ecouraged. Watching others live a phoney story is what we have been doing. Listening to phoney news. Learning a bunch of bullshit. Culminating in this neocon fiasco we call our government. And a weasle like Carl Rove being the brains of the outfit.
But, I have a feeling that reality is going to impose its fist on our face and wake us up real quick. And, we'll find that there have been and are and will be a lot more people than we were led to believe who are alive and conscious and able to deal with it. They just haen't been getting any press time. But, hopefully, that is about to change.
Well done Murph. I enjoy this blog and all the commentators. It's good to know there are those who care. You will be called upon someday.
I like to mix it up, but the right is so well endoctrinated that it's difficult to reach them, and almost impossible to change them. I would like to think the masses are just waiting for someone to lead them. Someone... genuine. Maybe I'm naive.
But I've come to the understanding that I have to do something, so I will join the fight and work from within. We'll soon find out if anyone really cares, or if all is lost.
In the meantime, keep on, prepare well, and hope upon hope.
I don't think I have ever seen Lilac do anything even remotely resembling disco...
Excellent piece Murph!!!
Now for my two cents worth.
Without making a comparison of leaders, let's compare now to the 1930s. We had a similar situation, a system of Hubris.
The Germans were desperate, they were starving, they wanted to know they were going to be OK. Did they look to find the base of the problem? Did the public wake up and demand real change? Did the majority ask for equality.
The answer to all of this is no. They elected the person who told them it was going to be cushy and great...
Gore Vidal pointed out in one of his essays that people want to follow the dreamers. He is right, but it leads to another question. How far are the people willing to follow them. Look at the depression when we drew pictures in school of what the houses would look like when the roaring times returned. Look at the standard of living before the coal miner wars, how far they let it sink. Look at the destitution in our urban centers now. Can it get worse before the masses wake the hell up?
SURE AS HELL CAN!
I usually say that the public needs a wake up call, that we need an informed electorate. I now say we need to suffer to wake up.
The Germans went to terrible lengths to deny their previous apathy in the years leading to WWII. I stay awake at night wondering how far we can go.
Are we looking at turning the corner up ahead soon? I am certain that we are. Which way will we turn? That is the million dollar question!
That is where we are now. This is the decision we need to face. Save our system, or let it collapse and replace it. If we replace it, who decides what the new system looks like? Do we re-make what we had, or start something totally new. Does someone do it for the people, or do we need to push them to wake up; the proverbial 2X4 to the head.
This is where we are now. Any suggestions?
History would indicate generally, the sequential events following a failed society are anarchy, dictatorship, repression, privation, elimination of perceived foes, eventually rebellion or civil war. Probable redrawing of political boundaries and a new administration or administrations, sometimes democratic but more frequently, another form of dictatorship, benovelent or repressive. I would like to think this country is yet salvageable if the miscreants presently at the helm can be crippled at the polls this November. I'm not yet ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Re: The collective addling of national intellect through TV addictivity. What's wrong with parental discretion and the off switch? When our children were young, a tube inside would get loosened, and the TV would be broken again for yet another indeterminate period. The kids would amuse themselves by inventing their own games or by reading.
There will always be some new product we try to blame the decline of national intellect. If not radio then TV, possibly I-Pod, or even the computer, in which case we may all wind up being vacuous empty headed simpletons, and qualified politicians.
I've been reading Cyclone's pronouncements for sometime, but felt any of my scripted offering would be but a shadow to some of the stuff I've been reading. I decided to put an oar in anyway.
Oldman river.
Great comments from everyone....very interesting.
As for the TV thing...well, me and my girl have been repeating ourselves for years now that we dont own a TV or watch it.
You would think that people could talk about other things but they cant. Most people we know live their life around the TV, it drives their conversation and their reality. We always end up feeling alienated because thats all people can talk about.
Oh well....
I tend to think that things have to get dramatically worse in order to eliminate the ignorance that has pervaded society. Its unfortunate but I just cant see that a new leadership will make any difference considering the amount of corruption and greed driving the current system - get rid of one crook only to face another one different in technique but equally as crooked.
A total reset is needed in a way that leaves nobody any question as to what course is the right course to take in the future.
IN relation to the comments made about how the previous generation could survive on a single parent income, when today both need to work like dogs in order to maintain a certain standard of living.....BOLLOCKS!!
Sorry, but that is a load of shite!!
Both parents need to work today in order to try and keep up with all the mindless purchasing of a TV in every room, a big SUV, a giant plasma screen or a ridiculous mortgage for an overly priced house in a grotto.
I dont buy it.
Perspective is what is needed. You must stop trying to keep up with the idea that you have to have all this shit in order to feel you are a complete person. What happened to having a life?? Where you choose what is the priority and what is important?
Btw, we still dance in discos' and we are not that young anymore :)
I don’t think that Technofreak and me are essentially saying different things. It is a fact that the buying power of money has declined over the years. As for buying SUV’s and plasma screens etc, I thought I dealt with this when I said “The same people that creamed off the difference of the extra income also created the society of want, sending people into spiralling debt to achieve the so called American dream and in so doing providing more support to Jevons’ Paradox”. I didn’t want to expand what was already a long piece and I thought that was enough to get the meaning across. I think we are in agreement.
From Belgium.
Old Man River,
Hell, man, put both oars in...that was a great post.
Oldman River,
Please keep adding. We love everyone's opinion. Good points, but I will defer one thing.
I don't think that "TV" is the evil we are worried about. Most of us would agree that TV isn't guiding us, it is responding to us. I think the root our problem is generally apathy, and laziness. Americans (I would believe that this is actually a human nature thing, we're just the experts) tend to look for someone or something that can hand-feed them their reality. They want someone else to do the work of finding the truth. They don't want to worry. The majority of us have decided that it is easier for us to have the truth filtered out for us, to have it all put in a shade of pink, either because we are too busy with work or because we are lazy, stupid, and scared of change. Right now the 12 second news story and the 8 minute "special report" is the best tool for that. We'll pick another vise when that no longer works.
Every person has a "different" reason, and a different action, for avoiding the realities of life but it always has the same effect. We will go to great lengths to find someone who will tell us that it is OK, and when we can no longer ignore the truth we will lash out (probably against the wrong person or thing) and start the cycle you describe over again.
Hiding the remote...
Reality
Folks,
All of you. I am very much impressed with the comments you have put up. It shows a concern, thoughtfullness,thinking and willing to put it out there for examination. I am going to be gone for most of today so I plan to add comments to the comments late. (lol, that has a ridiculous sound).
I personally want to thank you all for the contributions you are making. I know I am picking up germs of thinking and approaches to living and our problems. Later.
Belgium and everyone,
I have a copy of a study done I think in the 80’s. It concerns TV and its effect on intellect. It is hard copy in my files somewhere and I haven’t looked at it for quite a number of years now. In essence, it states that there is a relationship between number of hours watching TV and IQ test results. It is an inverse relationship. That is, the more hours watching TV the lower the IQ test scores. I do not recall whether the study separated out types of programming and how extensive the study was. I do remember it concentrated on children. What I think I remember was that for every hour (maybe 2 hours) of watching TV it lowered IQ scores by 1 percentile. If I can find the report I will elaborate. My files are so big that it may take some time to dig it out.
The story about the W’s being taken off keyboards I had not heard. That is funny.
So far, the religious extremist cults (without defining what a cult is) have never gained a really large following or much political traction. Hope it stays that way.
Yes, Nixon liked to gobbledygook his way through questions. I never did like that guy at all.
JW
Good luck on your working within. Sure hope you can prove my pessimism about this to be wrong.
Reality,
Your description of what happened in Germany is exactly what I fear in the U.S. Someone coming across with promises of business as usual and to cure all the problems with little or no sacrifice. Can’t be done, at least without becoming a police state, and I believe, not even then. But look at peoples attitudes now: If I have to give up some freedoms to ensure my safety, that is ok.
Yeh, I think it is going to get worse too.
I think we need to replace the system. How exactly to do that may soon be forced upon us. Remaking the system will not solve anything, just down the same old road. I get upset with the idea of the ‘leaders’ (read elites) telling us what to do. Keep in mind Reality, if we have the huge crises come on us, there will be a large die off of the population. It will then be much easier to get a unanimous decision by other than the elite on how we want to do it different. That is why I encourage people to start thinking of a usable working model that does not have the same problems. You all by now know what I want to be created.
Old Man River,
Nice to hear from you. I think you are misusing the term anarchy where you mean chaos. Anarchy is a way of viewing and living your life, and advocates absolute minimum government. Not wanting to throw out the baby with the bath water is a problem. Your remarks indicate that you think the system can be salvaged and operates ok if we have the right people running the system. So I offer this to you. The system is flawed, that is why we have the problem now. Personally, I am not in favor of someone telling me how I must live my life and I rather suspect you do not either. The system we have now does that. I want something better.
There is nothing wrong with parental control and turning off the tube. Problem is, parents want something to take their place quite often, and TV is convenient. When you look at our society, what is the Popsicle factor for your area? Parents are terrified of having their children unsupervised, in most cities and areas, with good reason. When I was a kid it was perfectly safe to be gone after breakfast till the street lights came on, or, if you were a small town kid or country kid, when it got too dark to play outside any longer. No longer is that allowed, encouraged and in some cases can be illegal.
You keep dipping your oar. At this forum, everyone’s view will be listened to. May disagree, may agree, and may even argue. It is a learning situation.
Tecnofreak,
In the early 80’s, I took a family with 4 kids and did a survival trip in the mountains. No running water, no electricity. It was a culture shock for all of us, but the kids had the worst of it. We found that without TV and related entertainment, they couldn’t stand it. As soon as they could, they went back to civilization. The wife and I did communicate better for a while, and I didn’t mind or particularly miss the running water and electricity for the most part. I did miss power tools, lol. But I do agree that TV is not conducive to conversation in most families.
I most emphatically agree that changing the leaders with the present system is not going to fix anything. We do need a reset. My opinion also.
I think I understand your bull shit statement concerning the 2 earner incomes. I am referring to the families living at this poverty level, not the upward mobile yuppies. I do know a bunch of families that literally can not maintain the family at any kind of healthy living without both working. Take a look at what level of living you have at $20K per year. That is approx. $10 per hour. After taxes you are going to take home a bit less than $300 per week, $1200 per month. Start taking out rent or mortgage payments, utilities, cost of food, maintaining a vehicle, clothes, mandatory school supplies and other school expenses, and that $1200 per month is gone. Now I can testify that if you are willing to drop your standard of living enough, yes you can live on it. Keep in mind I am not talking about the new car every 4 years, new appliances when one stops working, going to parties, eating out, all the things indicative of the modern ideal of an American life style. Generally, eating a healthy diet is far more expensive than the average American diet that is expensive to begin with. Believe me, I know the difference. I agree with you that it is far better, under any circumstance, to give up the houseful and garage full of playthings. I am not referring to this life style. I am talking about the people that to just get along have to have two minimum wage jobs to live. There are more of them than the news lets on.
Reality,
I agree that TV is responding to the demand of the users. It is somewhat similar to casinos responding to human desires of something for nothing; doesn’t excuse the medium in my opinion. I think it falls under the category of social responsibility?
I think this covers all the replies I wanted to make.
Murph,
You are following a noble pattern of stating the truth in an eloquent fashion. I agree with you completely, except for one small thing.
The reason I include the possibility of remaking the system is because of how I view our current system. The reusing what we have? I wonder if we could come up with something better. I would like to see us try, but I would also like to see us remember what we did last time as an option.
I believe that the constitution had a lot of potential. I, unfortunatley, also believe that we have not used it since the 1850s, so we never realized that potential.
The system is collapsing, and has been for a long time. It is not a matter if if but when it will hit bottom and cease to work. This gives us a small opportunity to remove the entrenched injustices which are inherent in how it functions now.
My suggestion is to use our last system as a base for forming the next with additions in the areas of civil liberties, human rights, and social responsibility in law (maybe a note or two about this Corporate Personhood bunk, too...). This suggestion is in the hope of blocking the chances of someone looking for a more "ideolized" version.
Just one voice of what I hope to be many in a coming debate over our future.
Reality
Murph,
You are following a noble pattern of stating the truth in an eloquent fashion. I agree with you completely, except for one small thing.
The reason I include the possibility of remaking the system is because of how I view our current system. The reusing what we have? I wonder if we could come up with something better. I would like to see us try, but I would also like to see us remember what we did last time as an option.
I believe that the constitution had a lot of potential. I, unfortunatley, also believe that we have not used it since the 1850s, so we never realized that potential.
The system is collapsing, and has been for a long time. It is not a matter if if but when it will hit bottom and cease to work. This gives us a small opportunity to remove the entrenched injustices which are inherent in how it functions now.
My suggestion is to use our last system as a base for forming the next with additions in the areas of civil liberties, human rights, and social responsibility in law (maybe a note or two about this Corporate Personhood bunk, too...). This suggestion is in the hope of blocking the chances of someone looking for a more "ideolized" version.
Just one voice of what I hope to be many in a coming debate over our future.
Reality
You know, I think that our problems stem not only from the structure of the government (constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.), but also the economic system itself. Ours is based primarily on capitalism, which is fine with me, at least the way it started out. I am no economist, for sure. But, it seems that capitalism has certain disturbing imperatives. It starts out as small businesses, free enterprise, etc. Then, over time as it gets successful and lots of capital is generated and there's BIG money in banks and corporations, it matures and more and more power is held in the corporations. Then, because capitalism requires continual growth, it all has to expand and it outgrows national boundaries. You always need to expand markets and use more resources and sell more and more goods,etc. Eventually, if this continues, we get in the situation we find ourselves in, where the world's resources are being used up, corporations have so much clout that they dominate governments, make self-serving laws, exploit more and more workers with impunity, fight resource wars, and influence political decisions that are bad for the planet and the citizenry.
We need something new that will reign in their power and make decisions that are sustainable. Everything now is based on interest. To pay interest, you have to have more money tomorrow than you have today. More, more, more of everything just to keep even. But, the earth needs us to use less. We need to reduce the population, not increase it. We need to buy less crap that we are just going to throw away.
Right now, capitalism seems to still have China to help it continue to expand markets and continue to grow. Walmart is planning to hire 150,000 Chinese workers in the next five years, I just read on the BBC news this morning. But, if China is developed as the West has been, by that time, global warming and the lack of oil, over fishing, killing the oxygen producing plankton in the oceans, etc. will be sucking the life out of all of us who survive the wars and other crap that goes on. We need some sort of post monopoly capitalism system of economics as well as a political system that takes all this into account and maximizes liberty and freedom to respond with life affirming alternatives.
Well, that ought to keep us busy for awhile...
A somewhat disturbing development recently... 60 Minutes had this interview with Woolsey, the former head of the CIA. Showed him living in a house all set up with solar panels, etc. and driving a hybrid car. Says the oil issue is real, etc. So, we should all go out and buy more stuff that takes all kinds of oil to produce. And, CNN had this intro show about the lack of oil that made it seem like the culprits responsibe for the mess are those nasty terrorists. Seems like they are going us use the coming difficulties to justify more of a police state and military responses. Good grief.
Reality,
Somewhere back, I think I mentioned that the bill of right is to a large degree a statement of anarchy. The world had never before seen a political document that guaranteed (supposedly) that kind of freedom to its citizens.
And as in any change, innovations are built on past thinking and development. This is true in science and technology and can be true in social organization. What too often happens is that reactionary elements (those that want to return to the old way) push an agenda that is not change but a rehash of the old. You will also take note that I am also looking for a change in values of how we make these decisions. The principle objection I have to the present system is the power of the elite, of money; The assigning of supreme importance to the pronouncements and agenda of the elite and the favoritism in social standing. Obviously, our present system allows that. It appears to me that this will inevitably lead to corruption within the system.
So, those aspects of the system that insist on freedom of action of the individual and the severe restriction of how the system can manipulate the individual’s values and life style needs to be addressed.
One of the historical arguments used by the elite, (it is true also in our constitution) is that the common man without property, influence, etc. is incapable of governing himself rationally in society, and the elites job is to enforce this rational behavior through force. I suppose there is some legitimacy to this argument, depending on just what 'rational behavior' is deemed to be. It further appears to me that all too often, this 'rational behavior' is more dependent upon how it affects the elite than the society as a whole. Thus 'irrational behavior' is relegated to what decreases the elite control over the individual citizens. This is further complicated by consensus democracy wherein the majority can enforce their will upon the minority, no matter how damaging that may be.
Please realize that it appears to me that any changes that address these concerns will not take place with society as it is, due to its size and complexity. And most surely not with the haste needed to salvage what is worth saving in light of what we perceive is coming at us. Instead, I am addressing what will be done when we are dealing with a vastly reduced population of reduced complexity.
If the collapse of our society and an accompanying die off does not occur in our lifetime, these issues will still have to be addressed. If our society becomes so agitated and civil war develops, but no complete collapse, it will still have to be addressed sometime down the road if we want to avoid a complete enslavement of society by a tyrannical government that very well can be the result of civil war. And this does not even start to look at whatever possibility exists for a military takeover of the country.
Please also realize that I am smart enough to realize that there are better minds than mine out there that can and should be looking at these issues. But right off the top, they are immediately suspect to me if they are part of the elite.
Murph,
Are you sure we are not related?
reality,
lol. No I am not sure. After all, we are at the least 16th cousins.
Oh Shit! You mean I married my cousin anyway!!! I think I've been in North Carolina too long!
Stoney,
Well at least your are in exhalted company then. Remember Jerry Lee Lewis. One of my favorite rockers.
Cyclone,
I think we need you. I need to hear more of the idiotic things that these scumbags have been doing recently...
Ok, Rockpicker, Cyclone, Stoney and Belgium.
I couldn't make our bonfire very big. All but the top layer of the burnables were frozen up so bad I couldn't drag them to the fire, and since it was so wet to begin with, I figured maybe a smoke signal would carry farther. So, Rockpicker, did you get my message in plains buffalo talk?
Sorry, I couldn't get very high up either. All the roads to the top of the volcanoes were still closed. At least we could show solidarity for the bloggers and disgust for the government.
Murph,
The thing I can’t figure out is that you need your burnable stuff in the winter not in the summer so what are you doing letting it get frozen?
I hope you have some better ideas for when the nation becomes nomadic.
I couldn’t get a fire lit so went to a local watering hole with my son in law and met a guy from my home town in England which was quite incredible, so we remembered the war dead by getting pissed together.
From Belgium
Belgium,
I am not heating with wood yet and the burnables was a pile of brush left over from last fall that I never got burned.
I guess we all showed our feelings as best we could.
EXACTLY!!!!! The nail has hit the head.
Hey Murph -- just saw your comments regarding the learnaboutcoal site. You couldn't have looked too hard for supporting documents since the site text clearly has hyper-links to many government and other independent data sources to support the claims on the site. Assuming that you might say that you're skeptical of government data, keep in mind that these types of reports are maintained consistently through both Democratic and Republican administrations and that the information is reviewed and verified each year by the independent oversight agencies like the GAO and the Government Printing Office. Just because you might personally disagree, doesn't mean that it is not factually correct and totally verifiable.
Post a Comment
<< Home