A Post from Murph
Hey all,
Here is another contribution from Murph. As always, thanks Murph. I will return on Monday. This weeks baseball schedule is killing me!!
Cyclone
"You're free. And freedom is beautiful. And, you know, it'll take time to restore chaos and order---order out of chaos. But we will."
George W. Boosh; Washington, D.C.; April 13, 2003
Politics, Elections, and Documents
I sit in front of the boob tube and listen to the news sources already starting coverage of the elections of 2008. Speculation is running high for who is going to shake out for either party’s candidate for president. I listen to the talking heads expounding on who is who and stands for what. I listen to the politicos trying vainly to clarify stances, or cloud them as the case may be. I listen to the same stuff coming at us over the 2006 midterm elections.
It is a sickening display of cowardice, misinformation and avoidance of the issues by everyone. Not one word so far about the basic issues. They are all only talking about the surface issues, the fluff that seems to be the sole concern of a large proportion of the electorate. I have yet to hear one word being put into the context of what our constitution says about it. Not one word. Of course, I don’t spend all that much time listening intently for words of wisdom from the talking heads anyway. The very principles stated in the documents that supposedly govern us are avoided, interpreted out, or ignored. The overall spirit, overall concepts, are lost in a barrage of verbiage. The people with only passing familiarity, (or for that matter no familiarity) with the documents involved are confused about what is happening and consequently tend to follow those with the most charisma in their public appearances. This process seems to be acceptable to the majority. Very few of the citizens will bother to look at the issues in the context of the original intent or even the wording of their documents. Instead, they depend on those with the, supposed, expertise to tell them what to think and believe. Thus, the society ends up with a majority of its citizens following some multiple and often contradictory pronouncements that may or may not have anything to do with the documents they are supposedly using as a reference point. This is rather obviously true in politics and in religion.
Let’s take one of my favorite examples in governance that is a liberal favorite issue. I cannot find anywhere in the document that we are using as a reference, the Constitution, that authorizes the government to use public tax revenue for entitlements of any sort, either to corporate or private citizen. So to justify this, we ‘interpret’ the document, or we insert the extension of ‘intent’ into the document. We have relegated to the Supreme Court the duty of telling us whether this is acceptable or not, interpreting what the constitution says or doesn’t say. So obviously, the personal political philosophy of the people that render these final judgments is going to influence how they decide.
No document dealing with human behavior can possibly cover every exact and specific form of behavior, religious or political. So over a period of time, those exact behaviors which are not covered in the document are addressed in other ways. That’s where we turn to the ‘experts’ to tell us what we should or should not be doing. In the case of the fundamentalists in religion, they advocate adhering to the exact wording of the Bible. Forgetting of course, that in the historical interval since the drafting of the document, often there are language barriers, translation difficulties, and the period social considerations to take into account. Thus we have the Biblical scholars that run the colleges that specialize in training for the job of spreading the word.
Let’s look at an example of social consideration. During the period of framing of the Constitution, dueling was a perfectly acceptable way of settling disagreements between individuals. Most people today find that rather unacceptable, and prefer to have personal disputes settled in arbitration in what we call our legal system. Personally, I think the dueling method rather forced us to be a bit more polite and civil and less susceptible to taking offense over trivial issues. Making an issue a life or death situation rather changes your values I think. At the least it would unclog our civil court processes for sure, and contribute to thinning out the more belligerent and trivial minded citizens. But this is a whole other subject, perhaps one that could be taken up if we manage to survive our present oncoming disasters.
The point of all of this is that humans take their self interest as gospel and try to manipulate the structure, documentation and system they are living under to conform to these self interest issues. We can therefore conclude, that overall, trying to document and structure in detail is going to fail. At least until we find a system that does not try to define all aspects of behavior, and is so specifically worded that there is no interpretation to be made. Going to be difficult with all the legal attorneys out there who have an agenda of their own.
As with so many of our complex society’s legal and religious documents, these issues abound. And not one of the politicians running for office seems willing to take them on. For that matter neither do the religious leaders. I have yet to see the Beatitudes being posted on a courthouse wall or in the halls of congress. I do not see any attempt to post and use as a guideline the Bill Of Rights. Which standard, document, are we willing to use as a guideline? Or do all of them have such serious flaws and ambiguities that it is impossible to use them as guidelines in any exact frame of reference?
I find it interesting to sit down with someone and have a really serious discussion about what it does mean to be free, and what the role of some system of governance pertaining to this. Invariably, it comes down to ‘Oh yes, I want freedom for me and everyone else, within these limitations’. Then the qualifiers begin. Yes, freedom is ok, as long as it conforms to your moral system of right and wrong. Is it really wrong to want to go naked in public? Sure is a lot of people that think so. May be in bad taste and offend some people but do you really want to codify offensive behavior as a crime? Is it wrong to self administer recreational drugs besides the current crop of legal ones? Every one of these social behavior laws can be classed as consensual crimes as long as they don’t damage other people or property. And I don’t want to hear that being offended is damaging. That has given rise to the extreme position of political correctness, where it is illegal to be offensive. All of these kinds of laws are the result of people or groups deciding for whatever reason that some behavior is so offensive that it cannot be tolerated. It is also a tool used to control society. There is a most excellent book titled “Ain’t Nobody’s Business If You Do” by Peter Mc Williams that is a must read on this kind of subject. I have used this book for a pile of research papers and governance essays. It is the most complete history and documentation of consensual crime in modern society I have found. As a plus, the author is truly entertaining and funny in his discussions of the subject.
Those that have followed my comments and postings already know that I advocate a whole new and radical way of dealing with social organization. But one thing for sure, if we continue to do the organization and thinking the same way, we cannot expect different results, and to think that you can, is simply another form of mental illness.
From Murph
24 Comments:
Murph,
I have to say that this is one of your best posts yet! Several excellent points and examples. I do wonder how much of this post was directed specifically at me...
One question, though, Murph. When you ask "Which standard, document, are we willing to use as a guideline," are you asking for suggestions, or being rhetorical?
I would propose that it is almost impossible to do anything else at this point. I believe that when you discuss the anarchical basis of your suggestions they are revisiting another previous society's laws. Several native american nations used "the tip of their nose" as a guideline for their laws. Are you using them as a guideline?
The point of using any previous norm as a guideline is that it gives us a baseline to follow. Not just an example of how to write law, but a history of how people will react to it. We cannot reasonably expect mankind to change its inherant nature. We also cannot expect them to change their reasoning without outside influence. This is why the guidelines are helpful, if not necessary.
Maybe, if I can pull one together reasonably quickly, I can write up an example of re-hashing our current base for others to pick apart. I'll give it a shot, and then see what Cyclone thinks about the idea.
Murph
Reality seems to be back in to his inherit ability to interpret history, regardless of contrary opinions of expert over many years.
He says, "We cannot reasonably expect mankind to change its inherant nature. We also cannot expect them to change their reasoning without outside influence".
I would suggest that Mother Nature or "Mother Earth" (if you prefer) may have the ability to provide that influence as she did for the Chacoan society.
Lilac
Reality,
Thanks for the compliment. There is a gratification to having someone take me seriously during my musings. I hope your comment about directing my comments specifically at you was musing on your part. Of course I wasn’t.
My question concerning which documents to use as a standard was intended in both ways.
The “tip of your nose” concept, while being a bit trite, isn’t really too bad a standard I think. Oh yes, I am revisiting the thinking of others to a greater or lesser extent when I talk about guidelines. And, I think I have mentioned before that there were a lot of borrowed concepts put into our constitution from the Indian societies. Personally, I think it is too bad we didn’t adopt them a bit more rigorously.
You bring up an important point. We have been arguing for nearly 3000 years now about what is inherent human behavior. We simply cannot seem to find much that can be agreed upon. Almost all the known great thinker’s take on this question. Even what we call the basic instincts have exceptions. And yes, the past can be used as guidelines. The problem is personal agendas. If your agenda is to or have a set of particular people dominate a society, what you codify will reflect that. The problem is that the people that have to live under this have to understand the consequences. This world has been using codified documents for most of recorded history that allow a particular small set of society to dominate the rest. Historically, what we are experiencing now is just one example of the result. There are always consequences and if you don’t like them, you got to change the premises and values involved. You are right, we are not going to change a large and complex society’s values. Hell, we can’t even get a consensus, much less a unanimous decision about anything. That is my hope for a radical downsizing of complexity and size, we get a chance to try again.
I am much in favor of you or anyone else throwing in their thoughts on these kinds of subjects. Not only does it help clarify the authors thoughts but give the reader something to mull over. Go for it.
Lilac,
Nature can sure influence a society or some subset of society for sure. Recent example is New Orleans. Or even the dust bowl days.
I would put this question to you. Why does mankind have to wait for nature to force a radical change in perceptions and values?
Lilac,
Would a dramatic change from our environment remove, or reinforce our existing values? I think you could answer that one much better than I could.
Murph,
Yet again, you make a good point (and yes, I was joking around).
I seem to see (and the written debate over the ratification of the constitution supports, for Lilacs sake) in our founding fathers' efforts, a bit of a quagmire. They needed to change the law in this country to effect real change, but the people were still hesitant to accept any real change. This seems to be not just the rich, but the poor, and even investors and traders from other countries. Not very suprising as they only had lukewarm support for separation from the norm to begin with.
This is, I think, why they had so many problems completing a fair systematic reform and why we would, as well. I hold little faith in the people's ability to move away from their desire for the statis quo, even with evidence that this norm is what is hurting them the most. Outside influence could change that, but my bet is that it would be for the worse if it did.
I would guess that, even with starvation and die-off or global warming and peak oil a harsh reality, they would latch onto the first person who promised to make it "like it was before." Sheeple are bad for that, to borrow a term from a previous post. This is a large part of the reasoning behind suggesting some sort of similarity between the old system and a new one.
Maybe someone with a little more experience in psychology could chime in on this...
Reality,
Your are quite correct in my opinion. People are resistant to change, even if the change can benifit them. Although, at the same time, changes are made for the wrong reasons and the outcome is also not so good. It's the value system and looking at consequences that poses the problem. An example of this is single issue voting.
One factor you are not taking into account is the visionaries. Those that have held up for consideration, even in complex societies, a different way of looking at the world, different value systems, and gained many followers. Most of them get killed by the the societies owners at the time. If the visionaries can gain enough traction to influence enough people, you can get change, even in a large complex society. I suppose that is one reason I hold out for even the slight hope that a new radical visionary comes down the road that will show people in explicit terms what is possible. Not just more of the same exploitation of the society by the owners.
One of the problems I see today is that all of the supposedly visionaries (I include Bush and crew in this) propose only more of the same. It really does not take a great deal of thought to see that the consequences of these 'visions' is detrimental in the long run to society as a whole. So I preach a change of values, and just hope that somewhere a new voice can influence enough people to effect a true change in thinking.
I am sure that all of you know by now that this guy who refers to himself as Belgium is actually English but just happens to live in Belgium. I repeat this only for the purpose of saying that I have no direct or otherwise right to tell you Americans how to interpret the Constitution or Bill of rights and I am not going to.
I can however make more general points. I really am curious to know what you regard as a visionary. To me it is somebody that has a vision about something and there are as many visionaries as there are issues. Don’t forget that one mans visionary is another mans nut case. By way of example, was Martin Luther King a visionary? Well he saw that certain sections of American society were effectively disenfranchised because they were being denied the rights that other Americans were enjoying. He did something about it and after a period of adjustment, the issue effectively, as far as the law was concerned, went away. He didn’t change anything fundamental; he just made what was there more available.
Is Ralph Nadir a Visionary? He is certainly proposing something different. But again it is only an issue not a system for society. If you are sceptical, ask yourself what is the correct green policy on defence?
The creationists have a vision, and so on. We tend to regard the really true visionaries as those as those who support our own beliefs and reinforce our own prejudices.
I am going to pick something stupid now as an example. After all the upheavals to come and after the dust has settled and people have time to reflect, what if those people said what we want is a return to feudalism. We are going to give a proportion of what we make and grow to somebody whose only job is to protect us when we are threatened. Life may be harder but we will know exactly where we stand which is more than we do now and after all what we give is no different to paying taxes. If this was the view of the majority would you go along with it or would you propose a separate breakaway group who lived according to your own vision. Then would there be any overall system for society as a whole?
What does a society with minimal administration actually mean? Are you saying that relatively trivial issues are not important? What if you go into a shop for instance and are sold the wrong thing or it is in some way defective and the shopkeeper doesn’t want to make any sort of redress. Is your only recourse to call him out in a duel or to take any perceived disadvantage out of his face?
You mention social considerations, Do you envision some altruistic ideal work ethic (if you are not prepared to work you don’t get to eat) society or do you take the elements of society as they come? What are you going to do with the hard drugies and the ones with AIDS?
You could decide that you are going to deal with the situation by letting those people exercise their freedoms. You could for example, have special halls where there are kilos of cocaine and heroin just lying about for anyone to help themselves to. You could also have brothels where people could have only unprotected sex. When all that lot are dead you could put them in a hole in the ground and forget about them and get on with what you really want to do. But then again it seems to me you are back to interpretation.
From Belgium.
Norman,
You covered so many points that to answer here is way too long. I have sent you an email concerning what you said. My reply is long enough that I think I can reorganize it and submit a post to Cyclone.
I'd like to know what you consider the real issues. Climate change? Peak oil? Loss of personal freedom?
People are easily confused. Instead of flocking to someone willing to lead the way on sustainable living, they will get sidetracked because the visionary is painted as weak on defense. Or instead of voting for someone because they agree with the ideas, they'll vote another way because they don't want to "throw their vote away."
I'm not sure that any progress is achievable until we all grow a set of nuts.
JW,
The events and supposed future events you mention are important within themselves. Loss of freedom for the citizens of this coutry I rank a bit higher than those events. But that is not what I am talking about when I mention basic issues. Obviously I do not like what our government is doing and proposes to do. The government obviously is not particularly concerned by what you mentioned. If I agreed with the actionsof the government, this conversation would probably not be taking place. Rather, what I am concerned with is what has happened, been writen, the values that allowed this government to even exist. Those issues are what I am calling basic.
I suppose that the nuts will get grafted on those willing to accept the operation if circumstances get as bad as is predicted. Yup, I agree, changing what we have now seems like an impossibility. It can happen, just a near 0 probability.
Murph,
I will keep this comment short (for me) since other readers will not know what I am replying to and that is not really fair.
I think that you should either post your e-mail as a comment or base another piece around your personal reply. I prefer the second option since firstly the replies to this post will be out of order and secondly it is an important topic that needs more space to develop.
You suspect that I am in favour of strong central government; well I am pleased for that but in fact nothing is further from the truth. American society has been sucked into this present situation and I don’t think after that experience it is right to expect others to go along with something new without knowing what it is they are signing themselves up for. My reply was more in the nature of finding out how far any proposed new system has been thought through. Perhaps you could say how you expect any new arrangement to pan out. Even after the age of oil there is still going to be a proportion of electricity from alternative sources, wind generators; geothermal, hydro maybe even nuclear. Can you say for what purpose you foresee this electricity being used? To what extent is the American climate suitable for sugar growing to convert to alcohol as a fuel? Could agriculture be sustained with alcohol fuelled farm machinery?
This was more in the nature of expanding your thoughts by questioning perceived consequences. It is strange we both picked on King.
As a silly aside, I was once challenged to a duel over the internet so at the time I found out quite a bit about it. It never happened because essentially the promoter ran off with the takings but one interesting thing we discovered is that duelling is still legal in Paraguay provided that both participants are registered blood donors??? Can you see the sense in that? If one of them is dead then there is no way they are going to get the blood out. Perhaps they want something put in the kitty before it is taken out.
From Belgium.
Belgium,
Lol I do think I will make a new posting to submit to Cyclone, around the answer I gave to you. It would be long enough I think.
You are right. Advocacy of a radical solution should be tested and questioned, even if in agreement.
Glad that being in a central authority state is not what you advocate. I took it as such. Sorry.
On one issue. According to what I have been able to find out, the whole concept of keeping things as they are using bio fuels is not feasable. We still would have to power down, become less mobile. The amount of land required would be more than we have for growing food. And, to do it intensively takes oil for insecticides and natural gas for fertilizers. If that information is true, then that is not an alternative. For a vastly powered down society, it would have use to keep some essential services going.
If we can keep the infrastructure going with the expensive oil, than electricity can be kept up. Since all of the electrical generation is dependent on oil to make the stuff to do it and maintain the infrastructure, that may become expensive and and intermittant also.
Your story about the duel is interesting. wow.
Don't be sorry Murph, how were you to know?
From Belgium
Murph,
I loved your post! Especially the part about vitimless "crimes". I used the quotation marks because I'm a Libertarian, and I believe if there is no victim, the there was no crime.
AQs to your comment about fertilaizer and insecticde, I've found out that if you mix a pint of cheap gin in a half a gallon of water, and put it an a pump sprayer, you have a dandy insecticide that not only kills bugs but actually repeells them! A good squirt of dish soap, in a quart of water will give the bugs the squirts! Herbicide is even easier! put some cooking oil in a pump sprayer, and spray the weeds carefully so as to keep it off the crops or flowers. The oil plugs the pores so the weeds die. Yank up the dead weeds by the roots. No problem!
Fertilizer is no problem, either! As long as we have politicians we will have bullshit! It makes real good fertilizer! Too much is still too much though! As can be seen by the quality of the ground water in parts of Texas!
My two cents on this discussion. When I said "blow it up and start over," that's exactly what I meant. With the current population numbers, there is no way to effectively change government in a meaningful way before either the economy blows, peak oil gets us, or the ice melt wipes out the earth. Pick your poison. (it will be the economic collapse) The only way to rebuild this place and make it work is to break it up into small, self monitoring factions, and try to bring it together sometime in the future, should anyone desire a re-coupling. The smaller the better, but certainly no larger than say half of a small state in the current structure, and hopefully a helluva lot smaller than that, like small cities or towns. All functioning as separate nations, making their own rules and laws, selecting leaders, following the will of the people. That's the problem now, the people no longer matter. Imagine what just the people on this site could do, if we all lived in a community somewhere. I'd bet we'd get along splendidly, and survive all but a foreign invasion. Sorry, Murph, a unanimous vote ain't gonna happen, I've seen too many juries of 12 that couldn't agree. Once the government is gone, people will have to learn to get along simply to survive, and they will. I'll stop now.
Cyclone
Stoney,
I have one more insecticide for you. It's an old remedy. Go collect a bunch of the destructive insects, put them in a blender, add water, blend real well, spray on plants. Works great, biodegradable, and will last for a long while.
Cyclone,
I know that unanimous consent is a kicker for most people and because it is so hard to achieve it, it means that stupid and unnessary shit just won't be made into law. You give the majority a chance to screw things up and they will. (Thats an extension to Murphy's law)
quote for today
The United States ranks 13th on the Human Freedom Index. Twelve other countries are freer than the United States.
United Nations 1993
I used to do a bit of gardening at one time and gasoline, while it is around, works just fine on weeds but you have to be real selective though. For plants that are attacked by slugs, put some beer out in a saucer. They all get rat arsed and you can throw them away the next morning. Sharp gravel is another one for slugs, they don’t like stretching their soft bellies over it.
Murphy’s corollary simply says that ‘Murphy was an optimist’.
You mean that there are twelve other countries where the white jet doesn’t land?
From Belgium
For those interested in gas prices at the pump in Belgium I have Diesel and 95 octane below. For some reason they didn’t have 98 octane displayed but I can find it again.
Diesel 1.09€/l
4.96$/gal (US)
95 Oct 1.35€/l
6.17$/gal (US)
From Belgium
Damn, Belgium, at those gas prices, it would cost me $100 dollars a day in gas for a road trip! It's $2.79/gal. here - I thought that was bad. Another somewhat disturbing thing is that there is a nasty virus going around in the Reno/Tahoe area that is hitting just about everybody. Sore throat, chest congestion, that is super catching and lasts for weeks. People are going critical and having to go to the hospital in droves. This in an area that has a history of lots of intersecting contrails in the sky...maybe they are practicing on us. Just a little paranoid thought...
Pertinant quote for today
The Bill of Rights is designed to protect individuals and minorities against the tyranny of the majority, but it’s also designed to protect the people against bureaucracy, against the government.
Judge Lawrence Tribe. Harvard law professor.
Belgium,
I just came to the conclusion that you can damn well have Belgium! DAMN! How the hell can anybody drive there at all! I don't mean, "Let's take a jaunt 'round the countryside". I'm talking about moving freight and performing such tasks as require an infernal combustion engine (Yea, I know I said infernal!) Hell at six bucks and change for a gallon of gas my lawn would look more like a forest than it already does!
Stoney,
It is just relative numbers and it is built into the price of what you buy in the shops.
In England diesel is the same price as gas. I don’t have up to date prices but it is about the same, however locals complain that Belgium is the highest taxed country in Europe.
Don’t worry though I have the perfect answer for your lawn, hundred year old tombstones set at jaunty angles; you will never have to cut the grass again. Well it will certainly be a talking point – no don’t thank me.
From Belgium
You know Stoney, I once asked an Italian Businessman if he ever had trouble with the Mafia?
His reply was that nobody in Italy had trouble with the Mafia, you just gave them what they want and build what you give into the price like an extra tax. When everybody gets used to those numbers they regard it as normal.
What is happening over the gas prices is that your numbers are different to our numbers. If USA was to adopt European numbers it would spread shock waves across the country and people would really get upset with the government. That’s why two thousand and, of your boys have taken a bullet or a bomb in Iraq.
From Belgium
Stoney Again,
I think you are going to find this site VERY interesting.
http://www.see-search.com/business/fuelandpetrolpriceseurope.htm
To convert into units you are more used to:
GB£ 1 = 100 pence
1GB£/ ltr = 6.57 $/ US Gal
From Belgium
Post a Comment
<< Home